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So am I spinning the tire, or is my clutch slipping?

  • Your spinning the tire.

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • Clutch is slipping.

    Votes: 15 93.8%

Traction problem, or clutch problem?

7K views 35 replies 14 participants last post by  Phreakish 
#1 ·
Ok so I took my 1800C out for a ride today, and did some thing I don't normally do.

I did a 3 runs threw the gears from a stop at WOT. :mosh::47b20s0:

So I had a problem I have never really had before. Not only do I almost never do WOT runs, but I have never had a bike with this much power before ether. So I'm not sure whats going on here.


So I took off in first making a right turn all 3 times and as soon as I got the bike straight up I rolled the throttle to 100% in 1st gear, then grabbed 2nd, then 3rd and let off at about 75mph.

My problem is that in both 1st, and 2nd gear the bike felt like ether the clutch was slipping, or the tire was spinning.
Its hard to explain. But the revs climbed, and the bike was accelerating, but not as fast it could, then I feel "something" hook up as I neared the top 1/3 of the gear.
I am not sure if my clutch is slipping, or of I'm actually spinning the tire.
The feeling when everything "hooks up" is what I would think the tire catching traction would feel like. Its like all the sudden the tire grabs and there is a light shudder in the bike and you can feel that its now accelerating faster! And that the revs now match the road speed increase. But this happens so fast its hard for me to tell if its the tire catching traction, or the clutch finally locking up.

I did this 3 times, (Was not planning to, but when it did it the first time, I decided to see if it would keep doing it.) and then I stopped beating on it. :hmm2:

I did a few pulls in 4th and 5th where I was rolling in gear, and I went WOT to see if the clutch would slip. Nothing. Bike did what I expected it to do. It went faster! LOL
And it never seamed to do this when I shifted to 3rd gear ether.

So I went back to one of the places it happened and looked at the road, but I do not see any marks there ether. Tho its not like I was smoking the tire or anything, so I was not really expecting to find any thing.

I have never had a bike with enough power to spin the tire before, so I am not sure whats going on here.

What do you guys think? Spinning the tire? Or clutch slipping?

I'm the second owner, bike has just under 13k on it. Rear tire is a newer Dunlop E3 with lots of life left. Road was dry and clean, temp was about 80*.

Thanks guys!
 
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#7 ·
Not what I was hopping for. :(

How far did you throw the gears??...
??? What is "Throwing the gears" ???
I ran the bike almost to the limiter if that's what you mean.

You were probably making the eath spin on it's axis a little faster. Now THAT's torque!:47b20s0:
LOL!

If you were spinning the rear tire, the back end would be getting squirrely, and would feel like it was drifting side to side. My guess is your clutch was slipping.
Back end felt solid. I never felt like it was trying to drift side to side, so clutch then. Great.



Ok so is there any thing I can do to stop the clutch from slipping other then replacing it?

For now I will take it easy on the bike, and no more WOT runs until I have the problem solved.

Is it normal for a clutch to start slipping like this with so few miles on it?
I have only put about 800 miles of the just under 13k on this bike, and have only done maybe 5 WOT runs threw the gears in that time. First was on the test drive, I just did 3, and I think I did one more at some point.

Is this something I am doing?
 
#8 ·
I can't say for sure but I've heard VTX clutches are not the strongest when stock. They're adequate for normal riding but for hot rodding, you'll need a hot rod clutch. What kind of oil is in it?
 
#9 ·
I am not sure what oil is in it right now. When I bought the dealer changed the oil and filter as part of the tuneup I requested it get before I would buy it.
This was done by a Harley dealer, but they got all the parts from the Honda dealer they own. So i would guess it has Honda oil in it?

Is there a better clutch out there?
And is there a way to reduce the pull effort? I did the Glens clutch pull mod on my 1300 and loved it!
Would like to make the 1800 clutch feel the same.
 
#11 ·
No, for an 1800 with its hydraulic clutch there is no way to change the pull force on the clutch such as a Glen's EZ pull.
 
#12 ·
Ok so me and the wife went for a ride yesterday and its the clutch for sure.

When its cold, I can bang threw the gears no problem, with no slip. But as soon as it gets hot it will slip if I bang threw the gears, but will hold if I shift slower, and then go WOT.

So it holds the power if I'm easy with my shifting, but slips if I shift it fast.

I'm just going to shift it slower for now, but I plan to replace it at some point.

I will be changing the oil in a few weeks as well. Ill try and flush some good oil threw it when I do just in case the dealer put the wrong oil in it. They claimed they got the oil from there Honda dealer, and that it is the correct oil.
 
#13 ·
It's not that uncommon for the 1800 to have some clutch slippage at WOT, especially in low gears. The factory springs on the clutch assembly are pretty weak and your clutch plates / steel discs are probably fine.
Some guys swap out the springs, a lot of riders swap the whole clutch pack with either a Barnett or MTC kit.
Springs are fairly cheap, but an entire clutch kit is only $150-$200 and it's only another 5 minutes of work to do the whole clutch pack.
Here's some great instructions, nothing difficult.
http://tech.bareasschoppers.com/clutch/new-clutch-install-vtx-1800/

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
#14 ·
I think I might try replacing the springs and see if that solves my problem.
 
#16 ·
As far as I cold.

FYI Being the grammar police is a bit rude, and highlights people with learning, or physical disability making them feel bad about them self. So thanks for that.
In my case, massive head trauma that left me a different person. Brain injuries suck by the way! Nothing like having to relearn almost everything you have ever learned, including how to walk.

Edited for language. My bad.
 
#17 ·
It was a joke, Francis. Lighten up. I know what your sig line says, but it is your decision to feel that way. Thick skin can be grown, as well as other things. No one needs a crutch around here, we are who we are. Don't take things so personal and you will have a better time.

And teach that monkey in your avatar some trigger discipline.



Just to add one more; I bet there are more people in the world that don't like your use of the Nazi term, than there are people who complain about spelling.
 
#18 ·
LOL you are correct, Monkey needs some trigger discipline for sure! LOL

Some times it hard to tell if some ones is screwing around, or actually attacking you. I normally don't get bothered buy it, but was just out right attacked on another forum a few hours ago. So I'm sorry if I took that the wrong way.

Sig line was also meant to be a joke, but I can see how it could come across a little harsh. Maybe I should remove it?

Edit: I decided you have a point, and changed my sig.
 
#20 ·
We folks named Francis take exception to having our names thrown around in sarcastic responses to another, LOL! FWIW, I have been whacked in the head so many times in my life, it's a wonder I'm relatively normal these days. I think?
 
#22 ·
We folks named Francis take exception to having our names thrown around in sarcastic responses to another, LOL! FWIW, I have been whacked in the head so many times in my life, it's a wonder I'm relatively normal these days. I think?


So, you're married too then ...ehhh? :icon_bigg
 
#21 ·
700 stitches in my face over a 12 month period from a car wreck in my 20s and permanent partial loss of use of my left arm and shoulder. Broken wrist, broken ribs, dislocated shoulder but I still sing the "I'm too sexy" song though.

I disapprove the use of the word normal in the context of the Cafe as a whole.
 
#23 ·
 
#25 ·
Changing the oil in the bike tomorrow. But they claim to have put the stock Honda oil in it. (They have a Honda dealer, and that's where they got the parts from.)

I also plan to replace the clutch line, and bleed the system. I need a longer one any way for the new bars I plan to install soon.
 
#26 ·
Oil and bleeding the clutch won't do much.

If you bang through the gears fast, especially if you shift without lifting or without using the clutch, it will slip. It gets worse the higher the rpm splits are. If you sync your revs a bit better, it'll hold a bit better. But if you really wring out every gear, and especially with more weight, it'll slip if you don't.

I can pull the front tire a bit just by modulating the throttle and snapping out the clutch. But let the revs climb too fast, or keep it WOT while kicking the heel-toe shifter between gears is a recipe for slippage.

People seem to like the Barnett clutches, or their springs. Mostly the springs. The equation for calculating friction force is the normal force (spring force) multiplied by the coefficient of friction - higher friction coefficients make it tough to slip when you want to ride like a sane person (boring, but sometimes necessary) - but a higher spring force is easy to achieve, and will reduce losses and heat due to slipping. The increase in force at the hydraulic master cylinder shouldn't be too substantial seeing as how the 1800s have a pretty significant mechanical advantage already. Though I realize having a bad shoulder/arm can make any increase tough (and I can relate).

Track your changes and let us know your results. But I'd bet you find only marginal improvements until the clutch springs are swapped out.
 
#27 ·
Well changing the oil did not go as well as I had hoped.
I removed the filter, and drained the oil. Put the drain plugs back in, and went to install the filter, and that's where it all went wrong.

They gave me the wrong filter!!!! Threads are not the same, and this filter will not fit. So I have to wait until tomorrow now to get the correct filter.


Given the problems I am currently having with my left arm, I really do not want to increase the clutch pull any. In fact I really need to reduce the pull effort. Its making my elbow hurt after a little while of riding. I do not have this problem with the 1300 as it has the glens clutch pull relief kit on it. I can also bang the gears on that bike with no clutch problems.

As is because I have to shift the 1800 slow or the clutch will slip, Its actually not much faster then my 1300.

So I would like to find an option that will reduce the pull effort on the 1800, as well as a way to stop the clutch from slipping.

Now the clutch will actually hold when the bike is cold. So I know the clutch is still good. And it will hold in all 5 gears if you go WOT while already in the gear clutch out and rolling.
When the bike has not been running long I can actually grab second gear so hard I do in fact, spin the tire! But after the bike has been ridden for a while, and everything gets good and hot, it will slip if ride it hard. But its fine even when hot if you ride it like sane person. Seeing as this is how I ride 98% of the time, its usually not a problem any way.

I want to do new springs, and bolts. But I also want to reduce the pull effort. Replacing the springs will probably fix the clutch slip. But it will also probably make it harder to pull. And that's not an option for me. So is there any thing out there that will work for me?

Later on the pull effort my not be a problem for me. But for now it is.

I may end up having surgery to fix this. Not sure yet. I also may have to just live with it.
 
#28 ·
With the hydraulic clutch on the 1800, upgraded springs will not change the resistance you feel on the clutch lever

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
#30 ·
With the hydraulic clutch on the 1800, upgraded springs will not change the resistance you feel on the clutch lever
Not true. Being hydraulic doesn't make it magic. The amount of force required to lift the springs must be mechanically translated to the lever. Hydraulic simply makes it self-adjusting and easier to route.

Given the problems I am currently having with my left arm, I really do not want to increase the clutch pull any.
I don't blame you. The stock clutches and springs can work pretty well for a while. Longevity seems to be a greater issue with them than actual holding power.

Most of the aftermarket springs use some amount of spacers to bring up the tension a bit. You could install them without the spacers to reduce the preload, but you'll be giving up some holding power. The benefit would be that the springs should live longer than the OEM units and still provide at least as much hold as the stockers. If you were able to list the dimensions of the springs, I or some others may be able to help you ballpark an installed height for the spring to equate to the OEM clutch springs.

That said, start with the oil change. I tend to use the 4T 10w40 valvoline stuff and don't really have any complaints with it. I'd get an extra quart, and after it's finished draining - leave the front drain plug out and add half that extra quart - then remove the rear drain and add the last half of it. This should help 'flush' the residuals out a little better. Then refill and ride.

The clutch may in fact be toast by now, but the oil change should help determine that. If the problem persists, a new clutch and/or springs may be needed. If so, like I mentioned, it shouldn't be tough to get you setup to avoid arm trouble.

As an aside: I've had shoulder/elbow/wrist trouble and had great luck with specific exercises to reduce the pain and discomfort. Grip squeezers for the elbow/forearm, and dumbell overhead presses for the shoulders. It hurts at first, then not so much, then eventually was able to do 'normal' things without the pain. Heavy stuff can still cause the discomfort, but overall the pain levels have decreased as the muscles have gotten better at stabilizing and circulation improved enough to reduce chronic swelling and inflammation.
 
#29 ·
I don't think there is any way to reduce the clutch lever pull force on an 1800 because it is hydraulic.
 
#32 ·
It's a pretty significant mechanical advantage the clutch lever has, so even a significant increase in the clutch pressure won't feel like much more in the lever. Maybe a bit firmer, but won't *feel* like it's stiffer - despite the fact that it is. Feeling is so subjective..

Also, the lever over-cams to a degree, which means that to hold it in requires less pressure than holding it in just a little (slipping). So a stiffer spring package won't feel 'harder' once the lever is fully pulled.

But if you suffer chronic pain or lack of strength due to any number of causes, even a slight change feels immense.

There's multiple things at play with the OEM clutch. The tolerances of various plates/clutches/pressure plate and basket, the length of the disengagement rod, the actuator piston in the slave cylinder, the width of the crankcase... all means that one clutch might work great for 100k miles, another not so much.

The Barnett parts seem to be the favorite, and even without the added spring force, they'll retain OEM level clutch pressure (if the plate gaps are set consistently) for much longer due to a better all around design. More coils, larger coil diameter, and smaller wire diameter make for soft springs - but they last forever. Fewer coils, smaller coil diameter, and larger wire diameter will increase the force, but can drastically reduce the lifespan by increasing the total stress. Finding a good balance, and the right material, isn't always easy. OEMs shoot for cheap, which tends to fall in the fewer coils and smaller wire diameter range, leading to a spring that is both weak and short lived.

The other issue is that once the clutch is overheated, or has been subject to the wrong oil or a lot of slipping, it doesn't tend to hang around very long. They overheat, burn out, and then they're done. As soon as they start to wear, the clearances open, the springs are further extended with less preload causing more slip, causing more wear... it's a viscous cycle that ends with a bike that doesn't like to move.

There are other causes though too. A sticky slave cylinder. A master with a plugged return vent hole. These can keep residual pressure on the slave and cause slip. Unfortunately, if not addressed immediately the clutch typically dies too.

The fix is to use good springs and make sure the hydraulics are 100% clean and operable. Seals in good shape, no drag, no crud. It's not quick or simple, but it ensures proper operation for a long time. The Barnett springs, last I checked, include shims to set the final installed height to help make up for individual preferance and tolerances. This should give enough adjustability to produce a good clutch lock-up without increasing the pull force on the lever. Since it's no mundane task to get to the clutch, a new set of steels and frictions is rarely a bad idea to accompany the new springs. It's also worth having a few extra screws on hand since they can be easy to snap off (small screws/bolts).
 
#33 ·
Ok so what do you guys think I should do about the clutch at this point then?
Springs?
Replace the clutch?

And what screws/bolts do I need to be concerned with?

I want to get this sorted out. I may decide to sell the bike and want the clutch to hold if I do. It will be harder to sell a bike with a slipping clutch after all. And I don't want to sell the bike knowing it has a problem.

My left arm dose not seam to be getting any better at this point, and at this point I may need surgery to fix it.
I have no problems with the clutch on my 1300, and with the Glens clutch relief kit, it dose not hurt me to use it ether.

I love my 1800, but the clutch, not so much. :(
 
#34 ·
Hard for me to say what you should do. Everyone is different.
I do believe that your bike is performing as expected from a stock 1800 if it only has slippage during the "banging through the gears". If it was slipping during normal riding, that'd be different.
If this understanding is correct, I wouldn't worry about the issue in the event you want to sell it, or even if you want to keep it (unless that WOT hard shifting riding is what you really want to do)

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
#35 ·
Thanks man!
Yeah it only slips if "Bang the gears". It holds fine the rest of the time.

If I keep it, I would like to be able to do a hard WOT shift from time to time and have the clutch hold.

But I'm glad its normal for them to do this in a way. Now if I decide to sell it, I don't have to do anything to it first.
I'm not the kind of person that will sell something knowing it has a problem. I have to fix it first.

I am looking at some new levers that are supposed to help with the clutch pull. And I am replacing the clutch line and bleeding the system soon as well. Then I will see where I am after that.

I am also looking to see if there is anything that can be done about my left arm on the medical side as well. But at this point, I don't think they will do any thing for me this year.
 
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