[kender]

ok this may be a total noob question. I have been riding for years, just me, not in any group. My old bike was never modified beyond changing the spark plug gap, and the only tuning was moving the choke lever when it warmed up.

The past several years I have spent modifying my car, and now I am turning my attention to a Vtx. I have the knowledge and ability to do 99% of my own mods, paint and rewelding for a rake being the 1%.

I say all this so that you know I am not a total moron. Now for the question.....can someone tell me what "trail" refers to? I know it has to do with the rear suspension/swing arm, but I can't put together what affects it and what exactly the measurments refer to. I.E. 4" trail....what is 4".

thanks

 

[Grant]

This info. will go a long way towards clearing up the issue but remember, not everyone agrees and some points you will read were written by people that are more conservative than I in their views. Also, keep in mind they did their research on other bikes, not necessarily VTX's. All my experience has been with my own VTX 1800 and others I've helped with VTX's have had the same great results that I have. I've ridden my X as you see it over 15,000 miles and wouldn't change anything
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/rakeandtrail.html

 

[kender]

believe it or not that actually clears it up. I was seeing other threads where trail was refered to and changing the rear shocks modified the trail, so I was thinking it had to do with the rear end. If I read the chart right, a stock bike with say a 32 degree rake may have say 3inches of trail, but when you rake the front end to say 38 degrees you may end up with a 4 inch trail. given that the neck is used to draw the line to the ground, I see how changing the rear shocks to a taller shock would raise the bike and decrease the Relative rake on the neck and thus change the point on the ground at which the neck centerline points to.

If I have that right, the trail is measured from the front axle forward to the point on the ground at which the neck centerline points to, and since the neck and the forks are parallel, just offset, the offset is not enough to counter act the longer line of the neck centerline, compared to the forks shorter length ending at the axle.

I have an interesting ? then. on the triple trees that give a total of 45 degrees of rake that you have on your site, it looks like the shocks are no longer parallel to the neck. I don't know the numbers but in theory, since the neck is the same then the spot to which it is pointing could end up being behind the front axle verticle line....would that make the trail a negative measurement. If that's right how is stability with that triple tree setup. I ask because that is one of the major mods I would like. The first is a 240/250 kit, the second is the rake. given the cost though they will likely be some time apart. I plan on the foots mod almost immediately.

so when I do the foots mod, as long as I make sure the outer diameter of the 1800 tire and wheel is the same as the 1300 then I won't have to worry about different size shocks.

thanks for the help

 

[Grant]

The subject is just lightly touched upon by the information on the website I posted the link to and is quite a bit more complex than what seems like logical conclusions from the information presented. Lowering the rear greatly increases the trail dimension when using raked trees but rear suspension height has a much different affect when running stock triple trees. I suggest you source a book on the subject and read into the intricacies of the subject if you want to really get into it. Sorry, but to explain it here would require a great deal of both space and time. Hope you understand.

The 45 degree trees on our website use a different set of pivot blocks which change the steering reck angle, effectively changing the basic rake in the same manner as if you actually modified the frame. This intricate design allows this kit to retain about 4" of trail and thus the handling is as solid and stable as a stock bike. That's also why those triple trees are so expensive.

 

[kender]

No doubt the are expensive, and the fork extensions needed as well. the look is phenominal, and considering it is totally reversable, it is bound to cost more money. I am coming from modding honda cars, and some of the prices on bike parts is sky high, but then I remind myself that there isn't that much to a bike so the prices have to make up for the lower number of parts on a bike.


I have 2 main mods that I want to do to the vtx I am buying, one is the 240/250 kit....or a 300 if available. the other is a rake like the one on your site. they are both $$$ mods so they will take a while to be able to do, but in the mean time I want to do the small things, like the foots mod, shocks that will let me sit lower to the ground (with out affecting the stability) intake, exhaust, etc. So I will be on your site frequently for parts.

 

[Grant]

No doubt the are expensive, and the fork extensions needed as well. the look is phenominal, and considering it is totally reversable, it is bound to cost more money. I am coming from modding honda cars, and some of the prices on bike parts is sky high, but then I remind myself that there isn't that much to a bike so the prices have to make up for the lower number of parts on a bike.


I have 2 main mods that I want to do to the vtx I am buying, one is the 240/250 kit....or a 300 if available. the other is a rake like the one on your site. they are both $$$ mods so they will take a while to be able to do, but in the mean time I want to do the small things, like the foots mod, shocks that will let me sit lower to the ground (with out affecting the stability) intake, exhaust, etc. So I will be on your site frequently for parts.

Thanks for your confidence in our company my friend
I'm always glad to talk to customers on the phone about these things. You're talking about expensive modifications and you'll want to have all the answers before making a final decision. As to the big tire kits available, if you will be riding your custom VTX much, I strongly suggest going no larger than a Metzeler 240. Your bike will look great and still be totally functional. Bigger tires look wonderful but your handling will be reduced dramatically. The Avon 250 works well also but personally, I prefer the Metz. 240 for it's great profile which encourages aggressive cornering. Coupled with a Metz. 120/70VR-21 on the front, the handling can't be beat!

 

[kender]

See this is the type of info that I will need to make sure I get what I want. I will be driving the vtx to and from work during the good seasons, about 70 miles mostly highway, and then around town for leisure.....So handling is definately a concern. I have seen the custom choppers with the bigger tires like a 300 or so and it looks soooooooooo nice, but if I loose function it's not worth it for my purposes. The bike in your sig... is that the 240 metz? cause that's the look on the rear tire with shorty fender that I am looking for, and the short pipes really open up that wheel. I will be keeping my ears open for info that I need for these big mods, and when I get the $$$ for them I'll call to make sure I get what I need. Like I've said, modding bikes is new to me so I know there are things that I need to get used to, and concerns to keep in mind when modding, lucky for me I don't mind asking the "dumb" question, rather than assuming I know it all. My very first upgrade will be a new helmet and jacket, since my current ones were hand me downs from my dad and are old enough that they wouldn't know a chin vent, from a piece of kevlar armor. Thanks for the info, I will tap your wealth of knowledge plenty of times in the upcoming months, from this to the simple stuff, like is the hypercharger Pro-r the best performing intake, and if not is it close enough the I can give up the 1/2 hp difference, for the cool look on the hypercharger and the vacum operated butterflys??? more on this later though.

 

[Grant]

See this is the type of info that I will need to make sure I get what I want. I will be driving the vtx to and from work during the good seasons, about 70 miles mostly highway, and then around town for leisure.....The bike in your sig... is that the 240 metz? cause that's the look on the rear tire with shorty fender that I am looking for, and the short pipes really open up that wheel.

Yes, that's my personal VTX and I run a Metzeler 240. I'm on my 3rd one. I ride my X quite often, as well as my Goldwing too.

lucky for me I don't mind asking the "dumb" question, rather than assuming I know it all.

You know the old saying, the only "dumb" question is the one you neglected to ask! :nope:

My very first upgrade will be a new helmet and jacket, since my current ones were hand me downs from my dad and are old enough that they wouldn't know a chin vent, from a piece of kevlar armor.

SMART DECISIONS!

Thanks for the info, I will tap your wealth of knowledge plenty of times in the upcoming months, from this to the simple stuff, like is the hypercharger Pro-r the best performing intake, and if not is it close enough the I can give up the 1/2 hp difference, for the cool look on the hypercharger and the vacum operated butterflys??? more on this later though.

My pleasure sir!
The dyno results I've seen indicate there are better choices, as far as maximum power production but you'd be within 1 or 2 HP of the best.

 

[kender]

My pleasure sir!
The dyno results I've seen indicate there are better choices, as far as maximum power production but you'd be within 1 or 2 HP of the best.

Cool, that's what I was hoping to hear. If I was worried about having the most HP I'd get the 1800, build the motor as much as possible and do some type of turbo setup. My little scooter ( rebel 250 ) had a low enough power to weight and torque to weight ratio, plus gearing, to beat most cars off the line ( not that I was racing but you can tell when a car is trying to speed up to keep you from getting over). Most bikes have that advantage over most cars, and given the additional power of the 1300 ( over the rebel ) I think it will give me plenty of power to keep me happy for a while. I don't need to be able to beat a sport bike ( otherwise I would have gotten one ), I just want enough to have fun.

I will probably every bolt on mod that will give better performance, without having to rebuild the internals on the motor. I have seen some writeups on the smog deletion and reed valve block off and I think that may be the second mod that I do. I have never understood, from a performance stand point, why the auto makers ever thought to inject warm air into the intake...it totally goes against the logic for performance. I understand it helps with emmisions, but the guy who thought this up needs a :spank: .

 

[Grant]

deletion and reed valve block off and I think that may be the second mod that I do.

Keep in mind, those smog system deletions you mention will not add any horse power or torque. I'm still running all the original smog equipment on my VTX and I've modified just about every other piece on the bike. Some people feel it improves the sound of the intake or exhaust but personally, I just don't see it. Removing the pair valve hardware makes accessing the valve lash adjustments easier but unless you're going to set your own valves, I don't see any advantages. I think a lot of people feel that removing those systems is an act of rebellion against the governmental bureaucrats but I'm not into that either.

Installing a free breathing intake, free flowing exhaust and re-jetting the carb. should yield about a 10% increase in power and torque which will make a notable difference, as well as increasing the bikes "sex appeal" about 100%!

 

[kender]

Keep in mind, those smog system deletions you mention will not add any horse power or torque. I'm still running all the original smog equipment on my VTX and I've modified just about every other piece on the bike. Some people feel it improves the sound of the intake or exhaust but personally, I just don't see it. Removing the pair valve hardware makes accessing the valve lash adjustments easier but unless you're going to set your own valves, I don't see any advantages. I think a lot of people feel that removing those systems is an act of rebellion against the governmental bureaucrats but I'm not into that either.

Installing a free breathing intake, free flowing exhaust and re-jetting the carb. should yield about a 10% increase in power and torque which will make a notable difference, as well as increasing the bikes "sex appeal" about 100%!

some of the info I found about the pair valve and reed block off said that it in itself won't add any noticable power, but that it will aid in adding power when you do other mods for performance. I could care less about the rebellion thing, I just like to mod stuff :cheers: .

 

[Grant]

I completely disagree unless you're going to do some really major modifications that would sacrifice streetability anyway. People make lots of claims to substantiate whatever they themselves have done but when you ask for before and after dyno pull data, they can't supply that. If you want an example, just post the question "Which exhaust makes the most power?" You'll get 10 different answers, all of them unsubstantiated. Almost everyone wants everyone else to emulate themselves. I say pick the components you like the looks of and try not to pay attention to everyone else, unless you want them to praise you. They will do that if you copy them... right or wrong.

 

[kender]

makes sense. So what would be the benefit to doing the reed valve and pair removal? aside from access to the valves. Are any of the parts visible? will it clean up any clutter? or open up room under the seat for mounting things like alarm brain/gps tracker? And yes when the time comes I will be doing my own valves, unless it happens to be a free service under the warranty which is not likely to happen.

 

[Big-X]

For the 1800 it did help with the decel popping, noticable. Added power? I have no idea at all and don't really care, but it did help witht he popping...again on the 1800.

 

[Grant]

For the 1800 it did help with the decel popping, noticable. Added power? I have no idea at all and don't really care, but it did help witht he popping...again on the 1800.

Plugging the large hose that connects to the back side of the stock air cleaner will yield the same results without all the work of removing everything. Aftermarket air intakes supply the plug in their kits. One came with my Thunder teardrop air intake. Some people say condensation will collect in this large hose if you plug it but clearly that is not the case when most, if not all manufacturers supply a plug and instruct you to use it with no other modifications. Yes, I've checked mine occasionally and the hose has been dry. By the way, I installed my air intake 4 years ago. I've got over 22,000 miles on it. My HPP fuel manager requires the pair valve system be hooked up so it can receive information from the stock ECU. I've never had any decel popping with either a Techlusion Fuel Nanny, Cobra FI2000 or HPP fuel processors. We have re-jetted many VTX 1300's and left the pair valves intact and had no one experience decel popping. Hope this info. helps others.