[Mortikus]

Mort, I can't thank you enough for pointing out the error in my conclusion.:glee: I worked really really hard on that response (so much cutting and illicit pasting) and was on the edge of deep sadness as to the lack of response, until I saw your post. :glee:I now have one in the chamber and vow never to be "chamberless" ever ever again.

Pdaveatriot:

Lol, glad to help.

I have a little Bulldog holster that looks like a cell phone case that I like. The kid learned a good lesson and was lucky.

Yeah that coulda turned out way worse... thankfully in life sometimes they don't and we do earn that lesson.

 

[bull117]

As someone mentioned better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. If my travels brought me in their borders I'd simply be illegally carrying. To PDave's question, I think your synopsis wasn't entirely their intended thoughts, but I do think the agreement is have one racked and ready. My only fear of ever doing this was understanding my safeties (on a non-safety XD/Glock) type firearm so I didn't shoot my balls off... aside from that concern, and overcoming it with practice and training and understanding how to carry properly better, now I would never have one without it being able to immediately fire. Part because of time delay, part also as someone mentioned 'announcing' what I'm up to... the slide racking would clearly take away my possible moment of surprise were I about to save another person's life, etc.

Mort

I agree in part about a round racked...but do think the judged by 12 than carried by 6 is a nice soundbite, but very trite and of little value...as if to give some reason for carrying. What I do not understand is your last line...to save another person's life. CCW is for personal (and family if threatened in the same venue) as a last resort...I get concerned when folks feel they need to carry in some capacity as a quasi-LEO role. Just my thoughts...

I too am not a fan of shoulder...ankle works...but hard to get to. I prefer the belt...but then it gets to be a challenge pissing in the public bathrooms. Oh well...whatever works.

Bull

 

[Mortikus]

Yeah, I have no problem with the restroom, it's slightly off right. Not my junk, my piece, wait I mean... you know what I mean.

As for the quasi-LEO thing, I understand what you mean... if I'm with my family and I hear on the other side of a mall gun shots, I'm going to get them out of there, that's my first and foremost requirement. That being said, in our state law, we are legally 'allowed' (not obligated) to prevent a 'forcible felony' with our use of deadly force... thus, if I see a defenseless woman being raped and bludgeoned I may use lethal force to inhibit the activity... aside from never wanting to get between a married couple (completely different scenario) but if I'm in a convenience store, behind a rack of twinkies, and the place is being held up, gun pointed at the shop custodian, I may consider drawing and taking a shot on the guy... it's not an ego thing, but perhaps an honorable thing... again were I in that scenario and racking the slide would draw attention to me that'd be silly... but if it's ready, he's distracted, I have a clear shot... I very well may take it... 'all' of this is larger gatherings aside... it's a very complicated subject obviously.

Mort

 

[G3Truks]

Yeah, I have no problem with the restroom, it's slightly off right. Not my junk, my piece, wait I mean... you know what I mean.

As for the quasi-LEO thing, I understand what you mean... if I'm with my family and I hear on the other side of a mall gun shots, I'm going to get them out of there, that's my first and foremost requirement. That being said, in our state law, we are legally 'allowed' (not obligated) to prevent a 'forcible felony' with our use of deadly force... thus, if I see a defenseless woman being raped and bludgeoned I may use lethal force to inhibit the activity... aside from never wanting to get between a married couple (completely different scenario) but if I'm in a convenience store, behind a rack of twinkies, and the place is being held up, gun pointed at the shop custodian, I may consider drawing and taking a shot on the guy... it's not an ego thing, but perhaps an honorable thing... again were I in that scenario and racking the slide would draw attention to me that'd be silly... but if it's ready, he's distracted, I have a clear shot... I very well may take it... 'all' of this is larger gatherings aside... it's a very complicated subject obviously.

Mort

The ever-popular "when to shoot" debate. My oldest son is a prosecutor and once a month his office has an outing. They usually go to a dinner and a movie and he told me last night, while we were having this same discussion, that if someone walked into a movie while he and his co-workers were lined up in the back row and started shooting....they'd be met with a firing line from the rear.

His opinion....

 

[bull117]

Yeah, I have no problem with the restroom, it's slightly off right. Not my junk, my piece, wait I mean... you know what I mean.

As for the quasi-LEO thing, I understand what you mean... if I'm with my family and I hear on the other side of a mall gun shots, I'm going to get them out of there, that's my first and foremost requirement. That being said, in our state law, we are legally 'allowed' (not obligated) to prevent a 'forcible felony' with our use of deadly force... thus, if I see a defenseless woman being raped and bludgeoned I may use lethal force to inhibit the activity... aside from never wanting to get between a married couple (completely different scenario) but if I'm in a convenience store, behind a rack of twinkies, and the place is being held up, gun pointed at the shop custodian, I may consider drawing and taking a shot on the guy... it's not an ego thing, but perhaps an honorable thing... again were I in that scenario and racking the slide would draw attention to me that'd be silly... but if it's ready, he's distracted, I have a clear shot... I very well may take it... 'all' of this is larger gatherings aside... it's a very complicated subject obviously.

Mort

Yes, it is very complicated...and the liability huge. Take your scenario of a gun shop being robbed at gun point...I shoot and the shooter starts wildly shooting everything...including the owner. If the bad guy starts shooting first...a different matter.

I see 'honorable' differently than you perhaps. I try not to confuse honor with what is smart at the moment. And I agree about racking...and neither of mine have safeties. Unfortunately...many ranges do not allow drawing, shooting prone, shooting around fixed objects...or even a moving target. And I suspect many do not practice dry firing. Hence...why I mention my points about scenarios.

Bull

 

[bull117]

The ever-popular "when to shoot" debate. My oldest son is a prosecutor and once a month his office has an outing. They usually go to a dinner and a movie and he told me last night, while we were having this same discussion, that if someone walked into a movie while he and his co-workers were lined up in the back row and started shooting....they'd be met with a firing line from the rear.

His opinion....

The key word is...started shooting.

I think scenarios make for better CCWers...and smarter.

Bull

 

[G3Truks]

The key word is...starting shooting.

Bull

True..and we all like to imagine the worst case scenario..and should..but let's say to Mort's point and for the sake of the discussion...you have a clear shot?

 

[bull117]

True..and we all like to imagine the worst case scenario..and should..but let's say to Mort's point and for the sake of the discussion...you have a clear shot?

And you take that clear shot and hit the owner...or find out it was a toy gun...or the bullet passes through and hits a child...do I need to go on? The liability of losing everything and the legal fees would be huge. We have a stand your ground law (and liability protection) when personally threatened...but do not have liability protection if I come out shooting first at a bad guy in the act of committing a crime that did not immediately threaten me.

Bull

 

[G3Truks]

NO NO...a clear shot and the other guy is threatening to kill someone.

 

[bull117]

NO NO...a clear shot and the other guy is threatening to kill someone.

Your call...I do not know what a truly clear shot is unless I have the weapon inches from the guys head. At that point...I suspect he would drop his weapon. Paper targets don't move...and one could be a crack shot hitting all from 15-25 feet in the bull's eye. In the heat of the moment, adrenaline flowing, people screaming, babies crying, and targets moving...clear shot? The stars would need to be aligned.

NY cops had a clear shot on a bad guy...and hit 11 bystanders...and I think they missed the bad guy (don't quote me on the number...it is not the main point though).

BTW...each state views it differently...hence...if one is traveling...it is always best to research that state's laws and understand the liabilities. Just my thoughts.

Bull

 

[DrOmega]

Wow!!!!! Lots of great responses. Thank you all very much. Here are my take aways.

DrOmega "so it's much better to carry the pistol empty, magazine unloaded, and the ammo in a locked box in the trunk. Plenty of time to think about things that way."

...
Pdaveatriot:

Man we need a sarcasm font LOL

 

[pman71]

I use hollow points. When I hit something semi solid they expand, mushroom and send shrapnel tumbling around inside the (object/person/target). They normally will not go through unless it is something more like a watermelon. In that case, they blow a fairly large hole with a ripping pattern. If I shoot someone, chances are better that the bullet would not penetrate than the continued traveling of the bullet into another person. As far as gun ranges, I have one in my back yard and practice when I get bored.lol I taught my kids to shoot, my ex wife, my girlfriend (who recently killed a rabid dog/wolf mix). A clear shot to me would be something directly in front of me with nothing between us or directly behind the target.

On a personal note: I would not take issue shooting someone with my AR either (even with armor piercing rounds). You have to pay attention to the surroundings. A big part of that is back drop. Not so much what would be between at that time but, behind. That bullet will continue until it hits enough resistance to make it stop. With the AR (as long as there is no moving targets in the planned path of travel) you could shoot the targets eye out if need be. So, things to the side that are stationary are not an issue. Even if one of my kids were next to the target (not behind), I would take that shot.

 

[jimbob1962]

After years of Illinois trying to avoid allowing CC, the Federal Courts mandated that Illinois allow it. Illlinois now has a CC process, but it is highly restrictive.

I'm a former Illinois LEO (part-time), and concurrently and subsequently, carried both open and concealed as a part of a private job for 15 years. I carried 24/7 for almost 20 years. When the CC process opened, I inquired about what it would take to qualify and comply, I was told that my training did not provide me with the training and education needed to carry concealed. (Supposedly, RETIRED LEOs are permitted... but I didn't retire.) After speaking with my attorney and insurance agent, I decided that IF I were to every have to use my weapon, justified or not, in a state like Illinois where the political system and the courts tend to be "progressive" rather than "conservative", I would likely go through every nickle I had in defending myself in the legal system, and then in civil courts. I have decided to NOT go through the proccess. (I was recently told by an CC instructor that he thinks my prior training would now allow me to carry, but that does not change my decision.)

Just another example of how Illinois works: A friend spent 13 years in the Marines and FBI Academy instructing marines and agents about handguns. It took him over a year of dealing with the bureaucracy to be granted his paperwork to instruct the mandatory classes for CC in Illinois... Illinois said he wasn't qualified to teach!

Illinois, in my opinion, has two distinct political areas: Chicago and East St. Louis, and then the rest of the state. We will never be anything other than a Liberal Democratic-Party-controlled state... there are just too many libs and welfare recipients in those areas for the rest of the state to try to outvote them.

 

[BG-Pete]

Sadly, I agree with you. That's why my first opportunity, I'm heading to the land of cheese.